Argo falling behind

[Noel Woods]

I just made it home from the Highlifter Mud Nationals in Jacksonville, Tx., this year it was myself in my yellow 8x8 Frontier, and Ty Clark with his older Argo 8x8, I was surprised at the quantity of people that came up and took digitals of our machines, and just wanted to talk. I think an aggressive dealer presence would definitely enhance sales. The event was at Mud Creek ATV park, but there is also nearby Soggy Bottoms ATV park in Louisiana and River Run ATV park in Neches, Tx. That's three large atv parks within a few hours of Shreveport, La, Tyler and Dallas, Tx.

I would love to see an Aggressive sales program in the area, and my thoughts are that a medium sized dealer in the area could move 6-10 machines a month to start and grow from there.

[ARGOJIM]

I would love to see an Aggressive sales program in the area, and my thoughts are that a medium sized dealer in the area could move 6-10 machines a month to start and grow from there.

Hell Argo would like to see that.

[crossbowme]

Crossbowme,you really hit the nail on the head here with dealers knowing the product,and getting the word out via advertising,but the big powersport dealers,IMO are not the way to go.
You don't go to a chevy dealer to buy a ford,and you don't buy a ford from someone who drives a subaru,so why would you go to a Polaris dealer with one argo stuck way back in the corner that nobody knows anything about? On the flip side, there is such a narrow market for the argo that it's hard to make a full time business out of just dealing argo,and thats why you see so much of this.
After having a 1995 vanguard for years and putting on over a thousand hours on it,I still had to do a ton of research on which unit I wanted to upgrade to,and what acc./track system was going to work for my application. I did find a dealer that only delt in argo,had all the answers,and sold me what I needed, and that whole experience was awesome.
ODG is very aggressive at trying to get new dealers,but a dealer is only as good as the knowledge....and experience that he has on an argo,and the time and commitment that they are willing to put into it,but sadly,this just isn't the case with so many.For the price you have to pay today for an argo unit,it shouldn't be some dealers "afterthought product"you just need to dig thru the pile of rocks to find the jem.

I agree with you about automobiles. However, around here you'll find dealers that have four or find power sport brands under one roof. I guess they were the ones I was referring to. In any case Argo has to get off there butts and get the word out.

[Sparx]

I'm confused, everyone seems to have forgotten quickly that this Polaris Rampage floats, swims, and has suspension, goes up to 60mph in comfort? How did that get lost in all this conversation that you have to sacrifice speed and comfort for an amphibious machine when the Rampage proves otherwise?

For me I would be very interested in selling both my Polaris Ranger 6x6 and Argo 700HD on tracks for one Polaris Rampage. The only downfall I can see in this situation is all the hours on one machine instead of splitting it up between the two and keeping the dirty work primarily for the Argo.

If the Rampage didn't float or swim I wouldn't be interested, but it DOES! The video even proves it and shows it swimming let alone floating. You know how limited an Argo is to swim on tracks, Argo hasn't even been able to do that. It has to be an aftermarket supplier to get an Argo to swim properly or competently on tracks via Adair, Escargo or possibly Channel with work.

This is what I think is the big breakthrough between the side by side and amphibious market that this machine has achieved that Argo could have taken advantage of but has fallen behind.

I've had SxS with tracks and can honestly say in the muskeg and mud it is very close tracks to tracks to an Argo on tracks. But the main fact is a SxS will never float like an Argo in the end, that's why I ended up with an Argo. I love the Argo for that, but it has to swim to be any use to me, so I am limited to the type of tracks I use on it. I'd rather not swim across the many beaver dams and deep 5+ creeks I cross daily.

It seems more dependent on the consistency of the terrain needed to drive across. It has to be thick enough for the tires not to break through for an Argo to float when a SxS or quad breaks through and hangs up more like a sponge then ruts otherwise an Argo is worse when comparing tires to tires. But very rarely is the Argo better on tires then my 6x6 at any level, it needs enough water to float over the ruts and clean the tires... This example would be in say 1-2ft of rutted up muskeg or clay, my 6x6 just shines in this terrain loaded up or unloaded. Just like driving in snow, an Argo is useless on tires anything more than a foot of snow and gets hung up. Tracks, whole different world, so I compare each fairly, track to track, and tire to tire. I would compare the Rampage to a tracked machine cause it's tracked obviously.

The Rampage to me is a cheaper Howe and Howe Ripsaw EV2, lighter too. Just because the parts are mass produced and doesn't have something like a Duramax motor in it. More on the scale comparable to a SxS and Argo under 70" wide. So sure, even if it comes out to $50,000 fully decked out, I'm already at that between my 6x6 and Argo combined. At least I wouldn't have to haul two machines around to do one job or store one machine after the ground freezes up cause it's so slow to ride and not comfortable putting down a lot of miles on. Be nice to have it all in one machine in the end not worrying about where I'm going and how I plan to get there depending on the circumstances.

[allwheeldrive]

I'm confused, everyone seems to have forgotten quickly that this Polaris Rampage floats, swims, and has suspension, goes up to 60mph in comfort? How did that get lost in all this conversation that you have to sacrifice speed and comfort for an amphibious machine when the Rampage proves otherwise?

So sure, even if it comes out to $50,000 fully decked out, I'm already at that between my 6x6 and Argo combined. At least I wouldn't have to haul two machines around to do one job or store one machine after the ground freezes up cause it's so slow to ride and not comfortable putting down a lot of miles on. Be nice to have it all in one machine in the end not worrying about where I'm going and how I plan to get there depending on the circumstances.

I think we digressed into contemporary SxS vs Argos and not the Rampage because I highly doubt it could be built as shown for $50,000. Realize specialized vehicles like this made from steel like Land tamers and hydrotraxx can be over $60,000. Let’s say they COULD build a much simplified and cheapened version for $50,000.

Well I do not think it’s fair to say $50,000 is a “so what” price point. $50,000 will by you 10 nice Max IV’s used. Or a High lifter, Max IV, Argo with Adair tracks and enough spare parts to last a life time. I realize you made a point that one ultimate machine would be better than a couple that you’d have to haul around. But at $50,000 you can buy or build a serious toy. It’s not so much to say that for the price point the Rampage is not your perfect vehicle, but in an open market consumers get quite a lot of options for that much dough and will likely just buy or build a Big Block monster truck mudder or something more outrageous.

[crossbowme]

Unfortunately, the price on that vehicle will not be even in the ball park with the Argo. It was/will be built to milspec. That is - operating with night lighting, NVG capable, nuclear/biological/chemical with harden systems. I spent 27 years in the USA and everything designed for combat was at least four times more expensive than civilian. At best you might get something similar to a Hummer H2 as compared to a HUMMV. Another wards not even close.

[Sparx]

All I see here is some unseen magical brand loyalty for Argo growing old in technology other then EFI which I don't care much for but understand the needs environmentally. It just seems like usual same as the Adair track loyalty on this forum to tear anything apart that could threaten the competition to an Argo. Let's face it, everything about an argo is old and archaic with very little technology anywhere else then maybe their space program. But just like Argo's space program not passing off the technology into an Argo I'm sure Polaris could do the same just as CHEAP as Argo does with their amphibious machines. We obviously don't need night lighting and nuclear harden systems for our use, that's just common sense. Like you guys are trying to find any downfall to knock it down.
I've had almost any off-road type machine there is and to me this seems like the next step. In my environment you need to stay on top cause no depth of snorkel or size of tire is going to keep you going in the skeg and water crossings I need to get across. Bigger tires just get you into bigger trouble, same with snorkels and there is a limitation on overall width despite the many cutlines in the area. The blowdowns can be so bad you need to ride through the trees to go around them as they would take you all day to cut through. The trees up here can be pretty big and heavy to deal with as well.
Here was my 2007 Custom Built Ranger with 8" lift and Tatou 4S UTV tracks buried in a beaver dam. It had over 24" of ground clearance, ran on 6 30" ITP XXL Mudlites when on tires with 6 Gorilla Axles. I broke 3 of the axles getting out of this hole and ripped the front A-arm off from the frame getting it out of this hole after driving through the other direction. My buddies 4 Runner on 35" Super Swampers was over the hood in the same hole just before I got stuck on the berm trying to get out and popped a balljoint out from a front a-arm and broke an anti-rotation rod in the rear on one track...

On tires at Mud Nationals way back in the day...

[liflod]

I found something much more affordable and better than all of those machines your talking about

https://wheeling.craigslist.org/mcy/6043688067.html

[john swenson]

thats cute.... sparx, i'm not even sure the polaris rampage could have gotten thru that bog !! j.b.

[LW1911]

Pretty sure my Grand Daughter needs one of these

[foxvalley]

Sparx,not quite sure if I'm following you, it's not so much brand loyalty as it is that an argo works,with the right track system,basically unstoppable. I have no time for brand loyalty if that brand doesn't do what I need it to do,get me in and get me out without getting my feet dirty.I have no time to be getting stuck, and don't consider getting "stuck" fun.
That hole your stuck in.....I drop into holes like that every time I head back into my swamp,in and out no problem. Less is better,so is simple is better,the less moving parts, the less to go wrong.
Here is one of my vids in a ditch,the video is edited.....not to cut out the parts where I got stuck, sorry,never happened,I just cut out all the boring parts......

https://youtu.be/imCOfgm3LRU

[allwheeldrive]

All I see here is some unseen magical brand loyalty for Argo growing old in technology other then EFI which I don't care much for but understand the needs environmentally. It just seems like usual same as the Adair track loyalty on this forum to tear anything apart that could threaten the competition to an Argo. Let's face it, everything about an argo is old and archaic with very little technology anywhere else then maybe their space program. But just like Argo's space program not passing off the technology into an Argo I'm sure Polaris could do the same just as CHEAP as Argo does with their amphibious machines. We obviously don't need night lighting and nuclear harden systems for our use, that's just common sense. Like you guys are trying to find any downfall to knock it down.
I've had almost any off-road type machine there is and to me this seems like the next step. In my environment you need to stay on top cause no depth of snorkel or size of tire is going to keep you going in the skeg and water crossings I need to get across. Bigger tires just get you into bigger trouble, same with snorkels and there is a limitation on overall width despite the many cutlines in the area. The blowdowns can be so bad you need to ride through the trees to go around them as they would take you all day to cut through. The trees up here can be pretty big and heavy to deal with as well.
Here was my 2007 Custom Built Ranger with 8" lift and Tatou 4S UTV tracks buried in a beaver dam. It had over 24" of ground clearance, ran on 6 30" ITP XXL Mudlites when on tires with 6 Gorilla Axles. I broke 3 of the axles getting out of this hole and ripped the front A-arm off from the frame getting it out of this hole after driving through the other direction. My buddies 4 Runner on 35" Super Swampers was over the hood in the same hole just before I got stuck on the berm trying to get out and popped a balljoint out from a front a-arm and broke an anti-rotation rod in the rear on one track...

As one for jumping on the band wagon of innovation and improvements, I will point out the already in production Tracked Tinger. I brought up in it’s respective thread how I really wasn’t as impressed with its performance as one would think a fully track driven machine should be. There is something to be said about the effectiveness of wrapping an aggressive open tread style track onto low pressure flotation tires. The Tinger in all of its videos seems to bog down and cut into the mud with its tracks like a knife. Let’s see the Polaris Rampage being driven by someone not working for the company or trying to sell it. 200 HP and hard heavy tracks may fail just as badly. An AATV with proper tracks like Escargos and big balloon tires keeping the belly from applying too much weight in the mud seems to be the ultimate solution to never getting stuck in the muck. I mean, I have never seen an Escargo or Adair tracked machine stuck, ever (not counting their tracks coming off)

But really, we need to back up and reexamine the big picture. Because I personally get sucked into this mental loop time and time again.
Off road is not just made up of big mud holes or swamps.
I spend FAR too much time fantasizing and weighing the pros and cons of building the most unstoppable mud machine imaginable. But… where is that mud? Most of the time one has to go looking for it.
In VT that mud doesn’t exist anywhere, not even during mud season. I spend 99.9% of my offroading bashing over sharp boulders and tree roots. There is a bottom to any mud pit I have ever encountered. I can’t image how quickly I’d smash idealer wheels and sprockets on a tracked machine in the terrain I drive. I’m not saying such muddy places aren’t the funniest to play in, or that in other parts of the nation they don’t exist, but a large majority of people would not be served as well with tracks as they may image.

It should also be pointed out this is a good example of how a SxS can be pushed so much harder and eventually break itself so much worse than an old archaic Argo. I high doubt if you got an Argo stuck in that hole there would be anyway to break any part of it. It doesn’t mean it be any better at freeing itself, but it wouldn’t break even if really pushed hard.
Sometimes there is such a thing as too much power. I like to make the point that Caterpillar Tractors almost always have JUST enough HP to spin their tracks under nonideal circumstances. The manufacturer of CATs know that any more power than what the tracks are capable of actually transferring to the ground will only lead to an increase in possible breakage. Another good example was when on Dirt-Every -Day they mounted 54” tires on a stock F350 and beat the snot out of it. They Never broke an axle or any running gear. Yet the truck got to 90% of the places they pushed it. It had so little power moving those big tires it just couldn’t induce the wheel speed or torque to break anything. An Argo is sort of like that, it’s just powerful enough to keep the tires spinning and not stuck. If more traction than it has is needed likely more HP will just break stuff.

I have nothing against wanting or owning a Polaris Rampage, I want one, it be awesome. But I struggle to image how it be better or even as good as a 8x8 with open tracks in the worst muck.

[crossbowme]

All good points allwheeldrive. In this part of Maine, it is a mixture of your rocks and things and peat bogs that go for miles. The peat bogs are bottomless and the woods so dense that a man can't not walk thru them. I have driven ATV and SXS all over this area but was always stopped by swamps. In the winter we'll have 8' of snow on the ground and those machines are helpless. In fact, this winter I had to break trail for our grooming snowmobiles because the snow was to deep. The bottom line is the Argo is the only nonmilitary or power line machine that can go thru this crap. I was going to keep my Commander 1000XT but am convince the Argo has it beat hands down. Sure it will only go 20 mph on dry trails but it is seldom you'll see a trail go a quarter of a mile without a turn. Speed here is immaterial.

[john swenson]

only machine i've seen go thru most every swampy, muddy , snowy ,bog conditions is the '' screw '' machines like the old fordson. but even they have there drawbacks i'm sure in certain terrain. they are sure cool though. j.b.

[Sparx]

Well I must say this thread took a much better turn when I was honestly expecting the worst. I agree with most of it too, haha.
See the hole above I pictured is easy for an Argo cause there is enough water to allow it to float. It's when you take the water away from the consistency of the mud that it becomes a problem for everything, note how I didn't just say Argo.
I've gotten my Escargo tracks stuck, I even bent a grouser and almost ripped a complete lug off my tire in one process. I made it through holes that got my Rubber tracks stuck and got stuck where I know my Rubber tracks would have made it through. I think each track has such different traits it's hard to get one that does it all. Take a look at these pics and tell me what you guys think:
Stuck on Argo rubber tracks


Escargo in true muskeg