Great explanation of whats going on.
Great explanation of whats going on.
Thanks Buzz
My new beer holder spilled some on the trails - in it's hair and down it's throat.
Joe Camel never does that.
Advice is free, it's the application that costs.
i guess there is no way to know if it takes more power to run in snow or mud ( same tracked machine ) , cause it could be powder or wet snow or sticky mud or pudding mud. any comments ? i was riding the max 2 highboy with my tracks in our first snow today ( 5'' ) semi wet and was trying to tell if it took more power than gooey mud. i guess there are to many factors to figure that out . j.b.
johnboy, snow and mud definitely takes more power to run in, if your tires or track are able to hook up. The track allows the machine to take a bigger “bite” out of the terrain, rather than just a little bit of each tire. Depending on the width and size of your track grouser (surface area), the track is able to hook up better and provide a big increase in the most challenging mud and snow. The track belting can only be turned so fast against this load with our little engines, but slow is often just as effective or sometimes better than a fast track speed. An elevated belt track will drive the belting 25% slower than the outside of the corner tire treads (which requires less power than an argo rubber track/adair track/argo supertrack). The reduced track speed happens because the track grousers “centipede” around the corner tires, meanwhile the track moves under the machine at a reduced speed, allowing the much larger vertical track grouser surface area to hook up and provide much better propulsion when in nasty “get stuck” type stuff. With an elevated belt track you’re able to have your cake and eat it too: for instance, keep the ground clearance and bouyancy of 25” tires, while enjoying a track that drives as easily as having dropped to 19” diameter tires...even though you didn’t. If your machine doesn’t have low gears, an elevated belt track lets you perform as if you did. If you do have low gears, then your machine performs like it has ultra low gears. More accurately, it’s like your existing machine has dropped to a 25% smaller tire size (power-wise). Your machine can still only provide its designed torque to its axles, but making tge elevated belt track drive requires less of this torque than a non-elevated belt track. This means better belt life, reduced engine temps and improved fuel economy.
Just remember to run track tuners so that tge middle tires do not have to overdrive the slower moving track that they are riding on top of (all axles are chained together so disconnecting the center tires outside the machine accomplishes this). This allows axles to drive and the frame inside the machine to share the load as designed, but it relieves load outside the machine tgat the middle tires encounter when inside a track.
Buzz, what do you feel is the ideal grouser spacing with the elevated style metal track like the Escargo vs the UHMW. Did you find any real benefits of using steel inserts in the bottom edges of the UHMW grousers for traction when you tried them? Do you think the shaping of the Escargo in terms of the heavily rounded corners is the best compromise of traction vs turning. I am sure they put a lot of trial and error into coming up with what works. Thanks
onlyonce- Right now I still feel that the original escargo grouser from Timmins is the best compromise of big surface area , small contact patch, and easy turning. Uneven ground has very little effect on it. The UHMW grousers I use are similar to that but tweaked just a little for improved clearance and to work with a factory 2.5” spacer even with 12” wide tires. Metal inserts or bolt on traction enhancers work great, so long as you keep the UHMW solid (without slots) and do not create any thin walled or flexible areas. Thats the best thing about UHMW, it is very stiff and will spring back from any slight flexing that happens so long as you don’t weaken it with bad design or thin walls. Depending on guide height, 4-5” spacing is perfect balance of track retention, weight, ability of mud to self clean, aggressiveness, and individual load on each grouser. Escargo got it right, I think they should go back to a more simple overlap hinge (one of their dealers suggested the metal hinge a few years back. A properly made UHMW track accomplishes the same thing, is less prone to bending, and is less mass in the water but requires added traction in icy conditions. 2 great ways to get excellent track performance.
Thanks, It does seem that most of the people who have tried putting metal inserts on UHMW grousers have cut some kind of slot and I can see how that would weaken things.
thanks buzz... what i really meant was is riding in snow with tracks take the same amount of power as riding in mud with tracks ? hence , i guess there are too many variables , conditions , etc. to ever really figure that out . j.b.
johnboy, sorry about that. I see what you mean- I haven’t been on the forum in awhile, so I’ll carry on a little bit more- it’s fun. I agree that the type of snow/mud matters. My experience is thick mud takes more power (body is forced to plow through mud moreso vs. than with snow, and it’s usually harder for the track to churn through thick mud very fast), but they both require significantly more power from the small engines, and the cvt system adjusts for load and gears the machines down. Same with inclines. Your performance moving forward will largely depend on the track’s ability to hook up. With deep snow, have to plow as well, just not as bad as with thick mud. Very quickly the machines are forced to operate in the slow/“gear-down” range that the cvt provides under load. The machines are heavy relative to engine size, so it’s all about traction not speed. That’s what makes wide tracks work so well, even if slow. Slow seems fast when nothing else can make it, and the properly tracked argo makes it through easily. The wider your track and the more vertical surface area your track has, the more propulsion it can provide when the going gets really bad. The body will sink less (and drag less) and the grousers can anchor themselves more effectively to keep you moving as the track turns.
Just imagine taking a shovel and pushing the blade through the mud horizontally vs the blade moving through the mud vertically. That’s my best analogy of big vertical surface area grousers having an advantage in nasty conditions. Thick mud limits your speed more noticeably, and the CVT does its best to gear the machine down (which lowers speed) to handle the increased load (and increased traction) that the track is able to grab. As track width narrows and grouser or lug surface area decreases, it is more prone to spinning w/o providing as much forward movement. The machine rides lower, drags more, and hooks up less. Stand alone tires (no tracks) even moreso. Keep in mind that any track performs light years better vs strictly tires (no tracks).
BTW, I’ve always thought your machine mods and self-made tracks were pretty slick, and I respect the fact you got to work and made it happen!
great explanation... i've modified my original max 2 adair shackel tracks to fit my 25'' tires. i only had enough grousers that i had to space them about 6'' apart . they are connected with 2 , 2'' wide belting with bolts thru the grousers . belts are on the tire ( inside ) of the grouser . in the space between the grousers i bolted 1'' thick rubber pads ( horse stall mats ) to take up that space . the work great . i did notice the other day in the 5'' wet snow , in a tight turn the tires would spin in the tracks some not gripping cause of the wet belting i presume . running straight , no problem. so i'm thinking of using either some rubber conveyor belting with 1/8'' high cleats spaced 1'' apart or some of the metal plate with perforated holes ( used for traction walking up ramps) to fasten to each pad or grouser for the tire to grab better. i don't want to have to tighten the tracks super tight. also i'm not running chains on the front wheels..would that help instead ? love to hear your thoughts . johnboy va.
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