A Frontier and Adair tracks

[Buzz]

I have Questions Buzz: Are Your grousers an 1 /12 wide? Do you put extra Grousers on your mud tracks? Are the grousers closer together? Does your mud track swim (pretty well?)(fair) (better than Adair's). How much of top speed do you lose using your mud tracks? Does your system work without track tuners and if so will they tear up your chains? Bearings? Sprockets?

Dan-

1-1/2” wide UV- stabilized uhmw
It’s a mud, tundra, sidehilling, swamp, snow, tussock, heavy loads, and run flat (if needed) type of track. I don’t typically describe tracks I build as mud tracks only, although I have yet to see anything else work as well in really bad mud. What makes it pull so well in the mud is the pure vertical surface area “anchoring” effect and “full-tire width” open area between extra wide belts. Cleanout width really keeps the track going in the thick nasty stuff, and extra wide belts give added footprint that matters greatly.
Swimming- without added paddles: okay (I think slow)
With paddles: much better (as well as any other track I’ve seen). But I think all brands of tracks I have tried are “slow” in the water. If you have to swim a very long ways (uncommon), they make motors for that. Available payload in the water is improved with any uhmw track since the naked grousers themselves actually float. Swimming across a pond or large swamp with directional control: no problem.
Speed: reduced ground crawling speed of approximately 20-25%. Improved performance down low whete you need it. You can also take advantage of high range that would otherwise be unusable in some machines. I don’t know anyone who drives an argo at sustained speeds of over 14 or 15 mph. If they do, they are (or will be) doing increased maintenance/repair on their machines.
Track tuners: recommended, although a wider uhmw grouser with routered edges where contact is made with tire treads can slip easier. More noticeable if you drive faster, slipping load feels like climbing a slight grade. Fuel economy improves with tuners (or just run elevated belt half-tracks or quad tracks instead: no track tuners needed at all)
Tread direction on slipping tires also plays a role if you decide to slip some tires. Tire treads do not hang up on grousers if the treads are in the “swim” position in the forward direction. If the machine can handle driving up a slight grade, it can handle slipping tires if wanted so long as grouser shape and tire tread direction is taken into account.
Most people do not understand wind-up: they picture it as if a wrench is thrown into a set of gears as if everthing will explode (not the case at all). All tracks experience some level of wind up. The most important factor is proper tire set up so that tensioners are not damaged, and the remaining load that remains (wind-up) from unequal tire sizes, can be dealt with as “slipping.” Slipping is easy to deal with if tires are set up correctly. At that point, the options are simple.
I will also say that all tracks are not created equal. Tracks I build are not escargo, beaver dam, or adair versions. It’s easy to think all tracks of the same type would all have the same traits (performance/durability ect). But they vary greatly, and most all will work if set up properly. Some tracks do have “watch out” conditions to avoid, and most folks learn to deal or put up with that fact simply because the get-stuck-factor mostly goes away with tracks. In closing, I always say any track is better than no track, but it’s true. Any shoes are better than no shoes.

[RICK55FLA]

Can anyone tell me who made these tracks? They came on my 2012 Frontier 650 6x6. [IMG][/IMG]

[Buzz]

Looks like beaver dam metal tracks to me. I have some of those here at the shop. They are very heavy, require larger wheel spacers, and for some reason the edge of his metal grouser body goes most all the way to the edge of the belt (nearest the body). They are also harder to turn on soft ground because of the squarish profile. You’d definitely want track tuners with those, tires do not slip as easily as wider uhmw. Like all metal tracks, you will occasionally bend grousers if ridden hard. I’m not sure if his belt is beveled away from the guides near the tires. Probably has a metal hinge as well. As long as you have proper clearance to your body, you’d probably be okay, but you might be a little short on power, especially if tuners are not used.
As nice as I can be.

[onlyonce]

Buzz,
What is your opinion on how well a 1 1/2" uhmw grouser would work if they all could be heated up and bent into a slightly cupped shape, rather then straight across. Nothing too radical.

[Buzz]

onlyonce- On the profile of the grouser, I have made the portion under the tire taller or “crowned”, there was no discernible difference in mud/snow performance. You can make any profile you want and could even router the surface of the grouser so that you machine more of the thickness away on certain parts of the grouser while it is flat on the table. I have played a lot with various bolt-on objects to add surface area. Some were tall, short, narrow, wide, shaped like chevrons, tapered on the ends ect. Some were even mounted so that they were similar to flaps on an airplane wing. Most all of them simply grab water but don’t move it properly. Instead small eddies are created and track speed is severely limited to gain any benefit paddling-wise.
What I have found that does work is adding surface area approximately 2” tall x 6” long oriented at the same angle as the paddle tread on new style argo tires. I do this on the outer belt (my belt is very wide which helps). This way the paddle-specific add ons are getting a fairly clean stream of water “outside” of the main grouser body. The other important factor is the spacing of these add ons. When you grab water and move it, you do in fact create an eddy and need to allow for the water to stabilize before the next paddle comes along. Otherwise, the next paddle will end up trying to push water that is already moving the same direction- (not very effective and not much swim force). I describe it as trying to jump straight up into the air and then attempt to “run” or “push off”. Thete is nothing to push off against, and you don’t really go anywhere.
So as far as bending a grouser to affect it’s shape, I think it’s more trouble that it’s worth. I can change the profile (2 dimensions) on the router table, and can easily “cup” the the grouser by changing its thickness in certain spots, but don’t think it really works, and I insist on NOT removing material that would weaken an otherwise thick/monolithic piece of uhmw. This way it’s incredibly strong. Machining away parts of the grouser is bad, and so is cutting the grouser apart and then screwing it back together.
If I want to add “cupping” or additional suface area in a 3rd dimension, I prefer to simply bolt on a separate add-on to the elevated belt. This way I can accomplish exactly what I want, the add-on can be manipulated by the ground at times without affecting the throug-bolted fixed position guides at all, and I (or someone else) can do it after the track is assembled if wanted. Don’t know if that answered your question.

[onlyonce]

Thanks Buzz. That helped answer that question and another I had about adding on to the belts. I have watched your channel track 1 video and was impressed with how much speed those side paddles added. They seem to be angled as you mentioned. Were you getting any difference in speed if you angled them the opposite direction on the belt so they would be pushing water away from the tracks? I can also see how having the larger paddle (belting) bolted to the angle which are then bolted to the belt would allow you to play with the shape and size, but allow for some flex or give when trying to fit between trees or twisting the belt on a sidewall in a ditch. I assume your tire has the tread with point facing toward to match the angle of paddles instead of the other way as one would have when just trying to swim with the tires. I don't know how much the tread direction matters when turning inside a track in water. Are you creating too much turbulence if you bolt anything on the smaller inside belting?

[Buzz]

I haven’t tried them the other direction mainly because I want them to match the angle of the swimmer tread on the argo tires when the tires are mounted in the swim position. That seems to work best. I know that in reverse, the track doesn’t paddle as well (same with argo swimmer tires), so that proves how they’ll do if mounted the other way. I’ll position tires based on their size within the track and whether I want them to hook up or slip. Elevated belt tracks do give you double the options on placement (big pair/small pair, corner/middle) to optimize track tension. Tire direction for swimming I think is mostly defeated once inside a track. I think mounting paddles on the inside belt would probably help as well, but not worth the risk for me (I don’t want any potential tub scratch hazards on the inside. I do know that mounting twice the # of paddles also doesn’t help. In fact it may slow it down. I’m still experimenting with paddle versions on the bigger uhmw grousers.

[onlyonce]

Thanks Buzz

[Buzz]

I might have a short swimming video later today. Just aluminum paddles 1x2x1/4” thick first, then a comparison with longer rubber paddles added to the aluminum. On a 22-1/2” wide center axles half-track. On hard ground it puts the rear tire 2 to 2-1/2” off the ground and turns the easiest of anything I’ve tried so far

[john swenson]

sounds awesome ..thanks for sharing your creative track experiments !! it is a lot of fun trying out different ideas , really satisfying when something works great. that to me is whats so enjoyable about this site ...seeing all the things everyone comes up with . johnboy va.