Swamp Tracks

[Buzz]

We can agree that the most optimal design depends on what conditions you are faced with and what you need your machine to do. One particular track may work great for one person while the next person needs something completely different. It’s not appropriate for me to be posting pictures of what I build as “optimal” for everyone. I will only say that a few things really do matter in conditions like we have in Alaska:
*Smallest contact patch (shape) grouser with extra wide belts lifted off ground
*full tire width clean out between belts
*Fixed position guides that cannot move
*Heavy duty overlap joint (Easy install design)
*Full thickness through-bolts
*Super tough materials

Many people have built versions like this before with narrower belt widths, grouser thicknesses, screws vs bolts, traction add-ons, etc.

It is very labor intensive. To do it correctly, even moreso.

Other track designs may be totally sufficient for many folks, and that’s great. Once in awhile I can’t help but share information that track builders won’t necessarily tell you (or may not be aware even happened) with their products in Alaska.
Any track is better than no track, and many people’s experience is limited to what they read.

[onlyonce]

I am one of those people who's very limited knowledge about tracks is from what I have read on this site and what I have seen fellow members use. But I am very interested and willing to learn what I can from those with real world experience.

When you mention tire width plays a real role in wear are you referring to the side to side slop or clearance on either side of the tire width in the cutout of the grouser? If so I assume you want just enough clearance, but not so much that the tire is slamming side to side violently against the grousers.

I also don't quite understand having the smallest contact patch (shape) for the grouser. Is it your understanding that the cutting edge of the grouser should be radiused like the Escargo and not flatter for most of the way across like you see on other makes?

Thanks

[john swenson]

i don't have the knowledge regarding tracks like buzz has , but i have sure had alot of fun building , testing , and re- designing tracks . i'm doing some mods on my half tracks now for the max .. j.b.

[Buzz]

I am one of those people who's very limited knowledge about tracks is from what I have read on this site and what I have seen fellow members use. But I am very interested and willing to learn what I can from those with real world experience.

When you mention tire width plays a real role in wear are you referring to the side to side slop or clearance on either side of the tire width in the cutout of the grouser? If so I assume you want just enough clearance, but not so much that the tire is slamming side to side violently against the grousers.

I also don't quite understand having the smallest contact patch (shape) for the grouser. Is it your understanding that the cutting edge of the grouser should be radiused like the Escargo and not flatter for most of the way across like you see on other makes?

Thanks

Tire wear can happen more quicky if the tire has to sqeeze into the grouser. On the other hand, being too loose makes the track move too far when the machine skid turns, the main concern being the outside track moving too close to the body during a turn. It can happen with any track, and it’s another reason I never have grouser body extend right up to or past the rubber edge. I also use an overlap style hinge instead of a metal one with a pin (the vertical through-bolts also do not extend to the belt edge). Most of this is a non-issue as long as the track grouser fits the tire properly. I have seen pictures of grousers that were cut/tracks built for a machine with 14” wide Vendettas where there was way too much slop in the grouser. No doubt the grousers were made 2” wider than an Argo (12”), but the Vendetta actually fits a 13” wide grouser perfecty for example.
Regarding contact patch on the ground, you are correct, smallest on the ground is best. It makes the track most resistant to tire guide manipulation from rocks, ruts, tussocks etc. It also makes skid turning much easier, not to mention the belt edge lifted off the ground. It’s not about having a narrow track (remember any track is better than no track), it is about having a wide track with a narrow contact patch until you sink and actually engage the belts and vertical surface area of the belts.

[Buzz]

i don't have the knowledge regarding tracks like buzz has , but i have sure had alot of fun building , testing , and re- designing tracks . i'm doing some mods on my half tracks now for the max .. j.b.

That’s why I enjoy reading your posts so much j.b. I appreciate you always being so friendly and neutral and sharing your experiences and projects. I can tell you’re a stand up guy. There is no better way to figure things out than just jumping in and getting after it, and I look forward to hearing about your mods. It almost always turns out good or at least you’ll know what to change if it doesn’t. I learned a long time ago that all the best ideas in the world don’t matter until you test them and prove it. Some of my best ideas made 0% difference, but I learned a lot, and it’s always fun��

[Sparx]

A couple thousand km is not too bad with track use all things considering Sparx, before you notice some sidewall wear with most tracks. *I missed the part about being worn out*. Seems a little fast for that to happen, although I have seen people destroy tires on a single trip with other track styles (moveable tire guide tips) in the wrong conditions.
What tire model and tire size are you using with your escargo all-steel track? I know that actual tire width will play a role in how the sidewalls rub on the guides. Also, make sure your belting edges are beveled back on the tire sidewall area. Belting should sit back from the actual track guides.
I’m not too picky on tires so long as the grouser that you make fits the tire well. Mud lites are good and a reasonable value usually. Most tires will have a best-traction direction. This can work as an advatage with tracks because the traction-mode can be used on the front tire, while the non-traction mode can be used on following axles (99% of your driving will be in the forward direction). If you slide a grouser over the tire tread, often times it will slide much easier one direction than the other. One direction will tend to hang up momentarily in the voids of the tire lug (at the peak of the chevron for example) while the other direction it will not. Most tires can slip easier in one direction than the other if you choose to leave middle tires driving (no track tuners). Track grouser width and shape can also affect how smoothly the tire treads can slip. Narrower grousers and especially square-edged grousers are harder to slip on, while wider, rounded(routered) grousers are beadier to slip on (UHMW).
Tire sidewalls always wear faster than treads when tracks are used, but elevated-belt tracks are much easier on your sidewalls, especially if you do a lot of sidehilling, carry heavy loads, or need to drive through ruts, rocks, and/or tussocks

I'm using the factory tires. I will show you some pictures when I get a chance since the machine is far away from me right now. I typically buy slightly used tires at a discounted cost even if they have pinholes in them just to throw tubes and run them on my centers. I do run track tuners too. Not sure if they somehow make the tire wear worse? Seems like I get chain windup either way with them so I may try running without them just to say I tried like you do.

Our terrain is similar for the bogs but we don't quite the amount of rock and shale you have on your level without getting into the Canadian shield with sand and then the rocks are huge!

The Escargo's have faired well and I wonder about trying Adairs for summer so I get my speed back on gravel roads and see how they fair to the Escargo's in the swamp and bogs. I like to run the High Torque 8.4 Trans and it's pretty slow on the Escargo's for recreational riding, fine for hunting by all means.

I wish you lived closer so shipping wouldn't crush me on a set of your tracks for our Polaris 6x6 Rangers...

Gavin

[onlyonce]

Tire wear can happen more quicky if the tire has to sqeeze into the grouser. On the other hand, being too loose makes the track move too far when the machine skid turns, the main concern being the outside track moving too close to the body during a turn. It can happen with any track, and it’s another reason I never have grouser body extend right up to or past the rubber edge. I also use an overlap style hinge instead of a metal one with a pin (the vertical through-bolts also do not extend to the belt edge). Most of this is a non-issue as long as the track grouser fits the tire properly. I have seen pictures of grousers that were cut/tracks built for a machine with 14” wide Vendettas where there was way too much slop in the grouser. No doubt the grousers were made 2” wider than an Argo (12”), but the Vendetta actually fits a 13” wide grouser perfecty for example.
Regarding contact patch on the ground, you are correct, smallest on the ground is best. It makes the track most resistant to tire guide manipulation from rocks, ruts, tussocks etc. It also makes skid turning much easier, not to mention the belt edge lifted off the ground. It’s not about having a narrow track (remember any track is better than no track), it is about having a wide track with a narrow contact patch until you sink and actually engage the belts and vertical surface area of the belts.

Thanks Buzz

[john swenson]

and i always love your technical explanations .... i can visualize your descriptions and it's like watching a ''track movie'' .. thanks , j.b.

[Sparx]

I managed to figure out how to attach some pics Buzz for your review. Gives you an idea of what I'm dealing with and the overall setup. Interested in your opinion.

Gavin

[Buzz]

Sparx, I would add more air to your middle tires. It brings the sidewalls away from your Escargo guides a bit. If the edge of the Escargo guides were more rounded, you could probably get away with running really low pressure over the couple thousand km (I believe that was your mileage). If you decide to run w/o track tuners, just put your middle tires in the swim position. This is more helpful than lowering air on middle tires, especially with your track. If you wanted to lessen the weight on the middle tires a bit (for slipping) while maintaining 5+ lbs of air in those tires, you can swap your small pair of tires to the middle, and your large pair to the corners. Just make sure that #1 is not larger than #4, and #3 is not larger than #2. Just another option. You cannot move tires like this on a flat track of any design (non-elvated belt), but on your particular track the middle tires will always overdrive the track, instead of the opposite happening.
The key is swim position treads on middle axles if tuners are not used, and probably at least 5 psi to keep sidewalls from bulging into your escargo guides. In fact most tracks and tire combos last longer with more air, so long as the track isn’t bowstring tight. And remember only the corner tires affect track tension.
Keep in mind you will drop some speed if tuners are not used, but it is on the higher end of the speed range. Argos aren’t meant for speed, nor extended gravel road use. I’ve seen more damage from speed or adjusting things to get more speed than anything else. And, the most worn tracks (all types steel, rubber, uhmw) have been tracks used on gravel roads for extended use. I at least tell people to consider dropping the tracks if they’re going to do that (not always possible). I do have customers that drive to moose camp or the cabin with the tracks on, then drop the tracks for cruising around the high country. These folks usually forego the tuners for simplicity sake.
And just to clarify, were those tires the original tires that came on the machine? And I believe you were saying have a couple thousand km or better in the tracks? All good info to know. Hope that helps and Thanks!